Wishing the readers and their families a very Happy New Year.
You might recall some songs picturised on Harindranath Chattopadhyay, who always looked over 80, or on the patriarch of three generations Prithviraj Kapoor, and several such songs on an ever-old Om Prakash or David. Coming to the next generation, most songs were picturised on adult romantic lovers. As for children, they had an important place in our films as in our lives, and you can reel off dozens of songs picturised on them in our films. It is another matter that barring a few songs like Naani teri morni ko mor le gaye, baaki jo bacha tha kaale chor le gaye, or Lakdi ki kaathi, kaathi pe ghoda, most of the children songs made them mouth mature philosophies. A popular soap on Sony TV, currently on air, is centred around a 6-year child who, like a 60 year old strategist, untangles the mess, removes her mother’s confusion and helps her in defeating the gang of vamps and villains in the family. Bollywood took Wordsworth’s poetic expression, “The Child is Father of the Man”, literally, and gave it a new meaning altogether.
After Wordsworth, many scholars tried to locate the Father in the Child. Further, you must have heard, everyone must nurture one’s child within oneself. And that as a man gets older, he becomes more and more like a child.
In this post I am not talking about any of these. The inverted commas in the title of the post are a giveaway. These are technical terms which came into vogue following the publication of the global bestseller, Games People Play, written by a practising psychiatrist/psychoanalyst, Dr Eric Berne, in 1964. Before that, he had written some technical papers on ‘Transactional Analysis’ in medical journals – a path-breaking methodology he originated for therapy which focussed on a person’s social interactions, or interpersonal relationships, which was a departure from and supplement to Freudian focus on an individual’s sub-conscious complexes. Here is a crisp summary taken from Wikipedia:
“Berne’s theory was based on the ideas of Freud but with distinct differences. Freudian psychotherapists focused on client personalities. Berne believed that insight could be better discovered by analysing a client’s social transactions. Berne mapped interpersonal relationships to three ego-states of the individuals involved: the Parent, Adult, and Child states. He then investigated communications between individuals based on the current state of each. He called these interpersonal interactions transactions and used the label games to refer to certain patterns of transactions which popped up repeatedly in everyday life in every human interaction.”
Hitchcock’s psychological thriller Spellbound (1945), starring Gregory Peck and Ingrid Bergman, displays a quotation from Shakespeare at the end of the credit titles:
“The fault is not in our stars, but in ourselves.”
This is followed by a statement on the screen explaining what the film is about, before it starts:
Our story deals with psychoanalysis, the method by which modern science treats the emotional problems of the sane. The analyst seeks to induce the patient, to open the locked doors of the mind. Once the complexes that have been disturbing the patient are uncovered and interpreted, the illness and confusion disappears, and devils of unreason are driven from the human soul.
The movie is pre-Berne, and now we can generally understand what he would have meant by his new ideas in therapy. I do not remember any post-Berne movie, say Khilona (1970), giving the gist of the underlying theory as Hitchcock did in Spellbound. That could have helped us in understanding the difference in practice better.
A reader wishing to delve deeper into the subject can download Games People Play free from archive.org. This is a genuine site hosting millions of books and movies in all languages. A few years later another book by Dr Thomas Harris, titled, I Am OK You Are OK, on TA came out which, too, became a popular bestseller. You can view this book as a companion to Games People Play. Harris is a Berne admirer and explains his ideas and some new concepts in a more readable style. You can download this book, too, from the same site here.
If I have understood correctly, the objective of Transactional Analysis is to study why people behave irrationally with others repetitively. And if they suffer because of that, is there a way to help them stop playing such irrational games, i.e., to bring them to ‘I am OK, You are OK’ or ‘Adult-Adult’ state? In that sense the psychological Game Theory differs from the rational Mathematical Game Theory which has wide application in economics, war strategies, competition for markets etc. I hope experts on SOY in these areas would throw more light on this.
I have to stop here because I am miles away from psychology, psychotherapy, or any of the things I have written above. Then why this post? The only justification is an email from a silent UK-based admirer of Songs of Yore, Mr Om Prakash Chaudhary, which I quote below:
Dear AKji,
I think Pooam Bhatia had been in touch with you to convey the message that how indebted we are at MSMT (Mile Sur Mera Tumhara – a forum where we run weekly themes) for the rich contents of songsofyore.com. I have personally been an ardent admirer of your site and never ever miss any articles irrespective of my limited knowledge.
Just last week we conducted a theme on Ego States Expressed by Songs (Transaction Analysis / PAC model). Whilst the purpose of the theme was not to validate whether any song would fit to the theme, but members were requested to state which Ego States (Parent/Adult/Child) the songs were sung in. The theme was indeed a roaring success and this is the reason I just wanted to request you to include this in your future articles at some point of time. I am attaching the theme description for your interests.
Needless to say, we have a huge respect for all your members because of their knowledge and passion for Indian music.
Obviously I am at the Child state – fearful of making mistakes among the elite members of Songs Of Yore, One day I would probably come out of my closet and participate on your site.
Many thanks for spreading your knowledge worldwide!Kind regards
Om Prakash Choudhary (OP)
+44….
In fact this mail has been sitting in my mail box for a few years. A request like the above from an admirer becomes a command. Mr Choudhary also gave a very brief gist of the three ego states.
In each of us, there exist three ego states – the Parent, the Adult and the Child, irrespective of how old we are. When we interact with someone, we do it from one of these Ego States:
- The Parent may be either a Critical Parent (criticising us) or a Nurturing Parent gently guiding us.
- The Adult is usually grounded in reality and is in the present.
- The Child may be either Free (giving in to pure instinctive reaction) or Adaptive (adapting its behaviour to please the Parent).
Now helped and commanded by Mr Choudhary, I list some songs with my own interpretation of these songs on PAC model. There are no right or wrong answers. SOY readers are very literate and intelligent. I request the readers to share songs generously as they have been doing as usual, but they must give their interpretation on the PAC model.
Adult-Adult
Fortunately, a majority of romantic songs fall in this category, such as Tujhe pyar karte hain, karte rahenge ki dil banker dil mein dhadakate rahenge/ Tera naam le le ke jeete rahenge, tera naam le le ke marte rahenge. Or, Tu Ganga ki mauj main Jamuna ka dhara, ho rahega milan ye hamara tumhara.
1. Aati tu kya Khandala by Aamir Khan and Alka Yagnik from Ghulam (1998), lyrics Nitin Raikar, music Jatin-Lalit
I place this song at the top of Adult-Adult ego states. Rarely you come across a more objective, rational couple discussing an issue very openly. The man invites the lady to Khandala, but she has serious concerns about what they would do there, she might catch a bad cold and cough in this wet weather. Any other guy would have erupted in irritation, but this man patiently clears all her doubts. This could be a nice training module for practising psychiatrists.
M: Ai kya bolti tu
F: Ai kya main bolun
M: Sun
F: Suna
M; Aati kya Khandala
F: Kya karun aake main Khandala
M: Arey ghoomenge phirenge naachenge gaayenge
Aish karenge aur kya
F: Barsa ka season hai Khandala jaake kya karna
M: Barsa ke season mein hi to maza hai meri maina
F: Bheegungi main, sardi khaansi ho jayegi mujhko
Kya karun samajh mein aaye na
M: Kya kahoon tujhse main jaanu na
Arey itna tu kyun soche
Main aage tu peechhe
Bas ab nikalte hain aur kya
2. Achcha to hum chalte hain by Kishore Kumar and Lata Mangeshkar from Aap Ki Kasam (1970), lyrics Anand Bakshi, music Laxmikant Pyarelal
I treat this song as a precursor of Aati kya Khanadala which was an Adult-Adult transaction pre-meeting. Its precursor, Achcha to hum chalte hain, was a post-rendezvous transaction. I have been an admirer of Aati kya Khandala for different reasons, but I guess a PAC psychiatrist would rate it higher because it adds a pre-meeting Adult-Adult screening whether they should take it to the next level.
3. Teri aankhon mein pyar maine dekh liya by Rafi and Lata Mangeshkar from Chaand Meere Aaja (1960), lyrics Prem Dhawan, music Chitragupta
I have long been enchanted by this song for its sweetness. Everyone admires Chitragupta as melody personified. This is the standard Adult-Adult romantic song quite prevalent in our films.
Adult-Child
4. Din ho ya raat hum rahein tere saath ye hamaari marzi by Rafi and Suman Kalyanpur from Miss Bombay (1957), lyrics Prem Dhawan, music Hansraj Behl
The man comes out as an obsessive lover. Such persons can be very dangerous. The lady ought to have exercised some restraint, tried to get away by making some excuses, such as I would think about it. Instead, she responds instantly and impulsively, Tumhari marzi to hamaari bhi yahi hai marzi. Some readers may take it as a Child-Child transaction. Some others as an Adult-Adult transaction. My reservation is because the man starts with a fait-accompli, and the woman simply gives a forced consent. I am perhaps also influenced by the recent incident of the brutal murder and dismemberment of the body of a woman in live-in relationship with her obsessed lover. This was the prime news in the media for a number of days until the election fever came in, which was itself overtaken by the FIFA World Cup in Qatar.
5. Chhedo na meri zulfein sab log kya kahenge by Lata Mangeshkar and Kishore Kumar from Ganga Ki Lahrein (1964), lyrics Majrooh Sultanpuri, music Chitragupta
The woman is in the Adult ego state when she makes a perfectly sane request to the man not to play with her tresses as public display of affection was not viewed kindly those days. An Adult response would have been, I understand your embarrassment, let us go out in a corner, or behind the rocks or bushes where we would be away from the prying eyes. Instead, the man is in the Child state, Humko deewana tumko kaali ghata kahenge. The lady tries further persuasion, Aati hai sharm humko chhodo ye pyaari baatein, but the man refuses to understand, Tum sharm kah lo isko, hum to ada kahengein.
6. Ye kali jab talak phool ban ke khile, intezaar, intezaar, intezaar karo by Lata Mangeshkar and Mahendra Kapoor from Aaye Din Bahaar Ke (1966), lyrics Anand Bakshi, music Laxmikant-Pyarelal
Again it is the woman – now underage – who is in the Adult state, telling her lover, Wait patiently until this tender bud blossoms into a flower in bloom. But the man, who should have behaved maturely, replies, Intezaar wo bhala kya kare tum jise, beqaraar, beqaraar, beqaraar karo. She still warns him, Husn pe to asar honewala nahin, ishq tumko na kar de deewana kahin; but the man is oblivious of consequences, Hai ye deewanagi bhi qabool tum agar, humse pyar, humse pyar, humse pyar karo. Someone should have told him that the consent of a minor, or her verbal, non-verbal signals would be thrown out as a defence by the court, and the punishment is very severe for the man entirely.
7. Rang birange phoolon ki jhoome re daaliyan, ..aisi pyari duniya ko chhod kahan chala re by Geeta Dutt and Manna Dey from Janam Janam Ke Phere (1957), lyrics Bharat Vyas, music SN Tripthai
Some readers might be surprised that I have described the ascetic’s response, Radha sang Kanha ka raas jahan chala re, is jhoothi duniya ko chhod wahan chala re, as coming from the Child ego state. We are conditioned by our mythology to have an exaggerated reverence for a person who renounces the world for spiritual pursuits. That makes us oblivious that there is also the other side. We have to admire the insight of Maithili Sharan Gupt to see Lord Buddha’s attainment from Yashodhara’s perspective:
सिद्धि हेतु स्वामी गये, यह गौरव की बात,
पर चोरी-चोरी गये, यही बड़ा व्याघात ।
सखि, वे मुझसे कहकर जाते,
कह, तो क्या मुझको वे अपनी पथ-बाधा ही पाते?
मुझको बहुत उन्होंने माना
फिर भी क्या पूरा पहचाना?
मैंने मुख्य उसी को जाना
जो वे मन में लाते।
सखि, वे मुझसे कहकर जाते।
(My translation)
My Lord went for Enlightenment
That is a matter of pride for me
But he left stealthily
That is my everlasting pain.O Sakhi! How I wish he had left after telling me.
Tell me, would he have found me only an obstacle in his path?He loved me a lot
But did he understand me fully?
For me nothing was more important than his wish.
O Sakhi! How I wish he had left after telling me.
In ‘Rang birange phoolon ki’ I find the women coming from the Adult ego state: This world is awash with colour and flowers are in full bloom. The dark eyes embellished with kohl are brimming with nectar. Where are you off to, leaving this lovely world behind? The venerable ascetic’s abrupt response – I am leaving this false world to live where Radha-Krishna are dancing in celestial bliss – is not convincing to me and appears as a response from an instinctive Child state.
Parent-Child
8. In bahaaron mein akeli na phiro, raah mein kaali ghataayein rok na lein by Rafi and Asha Bhosle from Mamta (1966), lyrics Majrooh Sultanpuri, music Roshan
Dharmendra is in the Parent ego state when he forewarns Suchitra Sen of the dangers in roaming around alone in the spring splendour. But her reply is of an instinctive Child: मुझको ये काली घटा रोकेगी क्या, ये तो खुद है मेरी ज़ुल्फों के तले. She continues in the same Child state to all persuasions of the Parent: मेरे कदमों से बहारों की कली, मेरा चेहरा देखती है हर कली.
9. Parent-Adult
Chura le na tumko ye mausam suhana, khuli waadiyon mein akeli na jana by Mukesh and Suman Kalyanpur from Dil Hi To Hai (1963), lyrics Sahir Ludhiyanavi, music Roshan
The man is in a similar Parent state as in the previous song, but now the woman’s response is more objective and explains to the Parent not to be unduly worried about her: Lubhata hai mujhko ye mausam suhana, main jaaungi tum mere peechhe na aana. She does still better when she reassures the worried lover-Parent: Mere waaste tum pareshaan na hona, mujhe khoob aata hai daaman bachaana. I put the woman in the Adult ego state.
Mixed ego states/Shifting ego States
The theory says that the same person can be in different ego states at different points in the social transaction. We can validate this by our own personal experience when an exchange starting with perfect poise degenerates into bitterness and uncontrolled anger. The players have to guard against lapsing from Adult-Adult into an Adult-Child or Child-Child state.
Adult/Child-Child to Child-Child state
10. Jhooth bole kauwa kaate, kaale kauwe se dariyo by Shailendra Singh and Lata Mangeshkar from Bobby (1973), lyrics Anand Bakshi, music Laxmikant Pyarelal
This is an interesting song in which Dimple Kapadia starts in a mixed ego state. The first line is an advisory against telling lies in a colloquial idiom, but I don’t know why she slips from Adult to Child state by abruptly announcing that she would go to her maika. Rishi Kapoor further spoils the transaction by threatening that he would come with a stick. There is a saying, “When you are in a hole, stop digging.” But the teenage lovers don’t know when to stop. The boy hammers the final nail in the coffin when he threatens, if she goes to her maika, he would marry a second time. The girl’s final whimpering, Main maike nahin jaaungi, to my mind, is not an Adult response. It is still her Child, bitter by defeat.
F: Jhooth bole kauwa kaate, kaale kauwe se dariyo
Main maike chali jaaungin tum dekhte rahiyo
M: Tu maike chali jaayegi main dandaa lekar aaunga
F: Tu dandaa lekar aayega main kuyen mein gir jaaungi
………
M: Tu maike chali jaayegi main dooja byaah rachaaunga
Acknowledgements and Disclaimer:
1. The thumbnail picture has been gratefully taken from this site.
2. The song links have been embedded from the YouTube only for the listening pleasure of music lovers. This blog claims no copyright over these songs, which vests with the respective copyright holders.
{ 41 comments… read them below or add one }
Ak ji
Wishing a very happy new year to all at SOY
And what a start to the new year. It’s no wonder that you attract so many music lovers of diverse background right from widely experienced like Chuadhary ji to novices like me.
I had to read the write up twice to understand it’s finer nuances ( still may not have fully understood)
You have classified
In baharo me akele in P- C category . There are two more songs that I can instantly recall but unsure whether they fit in P-C or P-A category . I feel they should Fall in the later.
Bikhara ke julphe – Nazarana – Rajendra Krishan – Ravi
https://youtu.be/7EC-A6aYsuo
Tum akele to kabhi baag me-Aao Pyar Kare – Rajendra Krishan – Usha Khanna
https://youtu.be/ij9fKGHeAFA
Both the songs are penned by Rajendra Krishan
Mr Muli,
Greetings to you too, and thanks a lot for your appreciation. Mr Chaudhary and his friends must be specialists in the field. I hope he reads this post as he seems to be a regular follower and answers our query.
I had shortlisted these two songs too, but I got other songs with clear contrasts. In these songs, too, the man comes out as a protective parent, but the women’s reaction makes the difference. Both appear quite balanced and their reply shows that the men too have chinks in their armour. They give counterarguments and counterexamples without any petulance. So I tend to agree with you. These songs are more P-A.
Your blog on ‘Parent’-‘Adult’-‘Child’ in songs is simply AWESOME! Not only have you clearly stated the premises, but also the justification for each song selection is impeccable. This is a beautiful tool for teaching youngsters the ideas of transaction analysis. I am indeed thankful to Om Prakashji for connecting me to you!
AK ji,
Here’s wishing you and all other SOY readers a very Happy New Year!
Like Mr.Muli, I also had to read the write up a couple of times and dwell on the examples to figure out what you were getting at.
From what I understand (depending on my present amorphous parent-adult-child state!!) these two songs would perhaps fit the parent-child/adult -child category. One of the two is more mature and guarded whereas the other is more carefree and impulsive like a child.
1) Arre Yaar Meri Tum Bhi Ho Ghazab – from Teen Deviyaan. The man is more rational and mature like a parent/adult whereas the woman is like a child who wants to live life without any cares and wants to flaunt her beauty. He constantly warns her to exercise restraint which of course has no impact on her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9oQZQvCQqE
2) Aankhon Aankhon Mein Baat Hone Do from
Aankhon aankhon mein (1972)
The lady is innocent like a child whereas the man understands the implications of a relationship getting serious and so keeps asking her to wait for the right time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCOSfVFVy1k
Woooo!
I don’t know if I have understood the theme correctly.
Was a tough lesson!
Perhaps these songs do fit ….
Adult/child – Adult
Main hoon gaon ki gori from Bol Radha Bol
https://youtu.be/zQzw9C6ANvA
And,
Ae Baby from Love in Simla in Parent-Child category
https://youtu.be/F9NqcZAGbH4
Thanks for the post.
Had to churn wheels in the brain.
Anup
😀
And
Perhaps these two songs from Grahan would fit in child – adult songs
Aaj Main Khush Hoon
https://youtu.be/F9NqcZAGbH4
Yeh sochta hai kya
https://youtu.be/YQJNw5j9syw
The songs were popular in 1996-97. But the release was delayed till 2001.
The songs were sung by Asha Bhosle, composed by Kartik Raja
Anup
🙂
Suguna Kannan @3,
Welcome to SOY and thanks a lot for your very generous words. You must have noted that I have no knowledge of the subject. My familiarity is limited to reading those two books. Often we read some book because everyone was reading it. You can think of a later book, A Brief History of Time, which made everyone an Astrophysicist. Now everyone reads Sapiens. It was like that with Berne and Harris’ books those days. I just thought I should caution you that if you intend to use it as a tool for teaching, you would be doing it at your own risk. 🙂
Anita @4,
Greetings to you too. I am happy that my post has set readers thinking. I only wish Mr Chaudhary drops in. I entirely agree with your P-A-C analysis of the to songs. I couldn’t think of an alternative analysis even for argument sake.
Would these two qualify?
Tere Husna Ki kya tarif karoon as adult-adult song
And,
Likha Hai teri aankhon mein from Teen Deviyan as a child-adult song
Anup
🙂
I should have wished the readers at the first place.
I wish you and all the readers a very happy, health and prosperous new year 2023.
Anup
🙂
Anup @5,
I was banking upon the doctors on the SOY to enlighten us. 🙂
Main hun gaaon ki gori: My analysis is that the woman is in the Adult state. She is not literate, and is requesting the guy to teach her. Perfectly objective. Yearning for education was universal. Perhaps Adult Education had not taken roots yet. It is the dismissive attitude of the guy I find problematic. So I would put it in Adult-Child state.
Aye baby love: I agree with your analysis.
@6,
Aaj main khush hun: The link is wrong. I am giving a correct link below. I agree it is Child-Adult song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YOAAJBO4p0
Ye sochta hai kya: I agree with your analysis.
@9,
I agree both the songs should fall into Adult-Adult category like most romantic duets.
Dear AK ji,
You know the feeling of a child when The Santa delivers the best Christmas Gift on the Christmas through the chimney chute, yes, the same emotions I am having right now and honestly do not know how to express my gratitude for fulfilling my wishes.
I always adore passionate people, irrespective of the fields, who dedicates their time and effort to achieve it. When it comes to the field of music, especially on Hindustani music, this admiration goes up many folds.
Not that I am authority on any subjects, most definitely not on this subject, however I have always been fascinated towards the transaction analysis as it empowers you to quickly compose yourself before responding. Easier said that done though.
With my limited knowledge, Ego states refer to the different parts or aspects of a person’s psyche that can influence their thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. These states are often referred to as the “parent,” “adult,” and “child” ego states.
The “parent” ego state includes the thoughts, feelings, and behaviours that a person has learned from their parents or other authority figures.
The “adult” ego state represents logical, rational, and objective thinking.
The “child” ego state includes the thoughts, feelings, and behaviours that are spontaneous, emotional, and based on past experiences.
To me, the simple rule says – if an interaction is authoritatively delivered – ‘do it’, ‘must do it’, ‘must not do it’ or based on the past traditions ‘should be done’ or the interaction is based on the caring attitude (more of anxiety towards others) – ‘be careful’, ‘watch out’ etc. defines The Parent.
Adult defines the reality, in present, factual, considered – valuing others opinion.
Child is all about spontaneity, expressing without thinking or to please others.
Which state is better? You cannot choose one over other, it all depends on the situation (or conversation) that you are in. It also depends on the mental state of the both the parties or the expectation from each other. If your friend is in deep trouble, you may decide to be parent or the adult or sometimes the child to lighten the atmosphere, all depends on your judgement about your friend.
At times, the conversations also switch over from one state to the other. You must have experienced all Adult-Adult conversations and then suddenly it switches over to Parent-Child or Child-Child as our opinions differ and then finally switches back to Adult-Adult realising ‘Agree to Disagree’. Isn’t it fascinating?
Conversations through songs are no different. Whilst we all enjoy romantic songs – the actor is hell bent on pleasing the actress who wouldn’t give a hoot to those sweet talks, you can quickly realise Child state of the actor whereas the actress’s state differs based on the response. शाम ढले, खिड़की तले, तुम सीटी बजाना छोड़ दो or संसार से भागे फिरते हो, भगवान को तुम क्या पाओगे typifies the Critical Parent behaviour. Tora Mann Darpan Kahlaye defines the Adaptive Child state and so is Tumhi Mere Mandir.
If you remember song of movie ‘Jaal’ and hear the interactions between Devanand and Geeta Bali
दे भी चुके हम
दिल नज़राना दिल का
दे भी चुके हम
दिल नज़राना दिल का
अरे छोडो भी छोडो
भी यह रोग पुराना दिल का
छोडो भी यह
राग पुराना दिल का
This could be categorised as Child-Parent or Child-Child.
Hope, by now, you must have realised my limited knowledge on this subject, but you may also have developed the technique to decipher bollywood songs through these ego states.
Thank you AK ji from bottom of my heart for considering my request and coming up with such an ‘Ace’, yet again.
Mr Chaudhary,
You have always been a part of SOY, but this is the first time you are formally coming out in the open. Therefore, I start with welcoming you to SOY.
I must say I find it difficult to believe that, you or your group, who had conducted a theme about PAC songs, are not practising psychiatrists. Your comment is very confident and comes out from an expert. Thanks a lot.
AK Ji,
Wishing all a very happy new year!!
Who would have ever thought the Transactional analysis theme could be related to film music!. Unique concept but will take some time to comprehend this..
To be honest when I saw a song like Aati kya khandala, I just rubbed my eyes in disbelief to reconfirm if I am in the SOY site !!
Also purely on a lighter vein, since there was no post on Rafi this 24th December , there was a Freudian slip by you ( see you have made us psychologists!!)…where song #2 by Kishore & # 6 by Mahendra Kapoor have been attributed by you to Rafi…
As I said ,it may take some time to come out with similar examples but will this famoue-Question and Answer in form of question song , Ek Sawal Mein Karun , Ek Sawal Tum Karo from Sasuraal/SJ/Shailendra/Rafi & Lata can be treated as Adult-Adult transaction..the questions and answers seem to be rational.
I am giviing just one antara from that…
Chaand ke maathe daag hai phir bhi chaand ko laaj na aaye
Uska ghatata badhta chehara kyun sundar kehalaaye
Kaajal se nainon ki shobha kyun duguna ho jaaye
Gore gore gaal pe kaal til kyun man ko bhaye
Sivanandam ji, namaste.
You are absolutely right that on the surface it sounds as Adult-Adult. If one understands the context behind this song, the real motive would be much clearer and so would the states
Hope you would now think from this angle too when you play our Bollywood songs in future. It’s pure fun.
Mr Sivanandam @14,
Thanks a lot. Our film duets are transactions. Therefore, if someone mentions TA, it strikes you as logical. All credit to Mr Choudhary.
Aati kya Khandala: I have a serious side where songs like this fit in 🙂 . I have discussed this song with great respect on another post on a serious theme.
This Freudian slip I would call Sivanandam Effect. But thanks a lot. Since corrected.
On your Q&A song, the Master has already commented.
Ak ji
Despite Chaudhary Ji’s succinct explanation I am flummoxed by this song
Jaisa des vaisa bhes – Des Pardes- Amit Khanna – Rajesh Roshan – Kishor and Lata
https://youtu.be/AS0rOd2kJ5g
Here Dev in a parental role is exhorting Tina to be modern and Tina who should have been modern on her own is shying away . Rebel parent and a conservative child!!
Mr Muli,
“Do in Rome as Romans do”, could be logical statement. Therefore, I would assume Dev Anand’s ego state is Adult. On Tina Munim I agree with you – Child state.
Good collection of songs especially the underrated ones like Din ho ya raat from Miss Bombay (1957)! Please keep up the tradition in the New Year 2023!
KB,
Thanks. Din ho ya raat hum rahein tere saath has long been my great favourite from the radio era.
Happy New Year, AK, to you and readers of SoY. I must confess that I have no clue about the theme that you have written at such length about, but the songs were varied and made for great listening. 🙂
Happy New Year, AK and all SoYers!
AK – What a cracker of a post! Incidentally, TA is one of the bases of what my fellow partners and I do at our leadership consulting firm. Since I am a relatively recent entrant in the business, I can’t claim to be an expert. That said, I will definitely share this post with my partners.
Here is an example of a Parent-Child interaction with the Parent finally winning through kapaT chaal:
‘Baagon mein bahaar hai’ by Lata & Rafi, from Aradhana (1969), MD – SD Burman, Lyricist – Anand Bakshi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUWaGkirRoY
Anu @21,
Thanks a lot for dropping and wishing you, too, a very Happy New Year. I should also confess my awareness of the theme is minimal. But that should not stop you from sharing songs with your PAC analysis.
Ashwin,
Thanks a lot for your greetings and your appreciation. I am pleased to know that you are surely an expert compared to the author of post 🙂 . I would like to know how amused were your expert partners at this post.
Baagon mein bahar hai is an interesting song. Your analysis is very good. The parents often trick their reluctant child into eating – Chandamama songs can be put in this category. You can put the man in the Adult state too. He knows what he wants and gets it with a little game playing.
I have mentioned a pre-Berne film, Hitchcock’s Spellbound (1945). I have been racking my brains for a post-Berne film in which TA can be applicable. Martin Scorsese’s Raging Bull (1980) comes to my mind. Robert De Nero remains throughout in an obsessive and self-destructive state resulting into his disastrous relationship with his brother, wife, boxing management. Scorsese does not get into solution, unlike Spellbound. De Nero was a perfect candidate for TA help.
Ak ji
In Hum Dono Sadhna played an unusual role. She falls in love with a person who is unemployed and poor (that is not unusual) . But defying her father she starts living with her would be mother in law who is terminally ill (this is quite unheard of even today).
And when Dev is caught between her and Nanda as a result of mistaken identity, she adorns the role of an adult gently coaxing Dev to divulge his torment
Jaha main aisa kaun hai – Sahir – Jaidev – Asha
https://youtu.be/UCfFgL_6RSM
AK Ji,
Thought of sharing this unique song from Aag(1948)-Ram Ganguly/Mukesh & Shamshad Begum/ Behzaad Lucknowi
I haven’s seen this movie and dont knwo what is the context and why the two actors enacting the song are dressed as kids-complete with pram, soothers etc!!!!
The lyrics are romantic & Adult-Adult but visual is Child-Child!!…must be a psychologist’s delight!
Raat ko ji chamke taare
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH1Iq-MfIVE
Mr Muli @25,
The song Jahan mein aisa kaun hai and your PAC analysis are superb.
Mr Sivanandam @26,
Raat ko ji chamke taare: I have seen the movie long ago. I don’t remember much about it now, except that the theme was about a theatre in which there is some fire and the the leading actor suffers burn injuries. This could be a stage performance song, your PAC analysis is very interesting.
To adapt Ecclesiastes, of the making of blog post themes there is no end ; D
I am an entirely amateur hand at this, but “Aaina Hai Mera Chehra” (from the ’90s “Aaina”) came up in an unrelated conversation yesterday and I think it invites this manner of analysis. The song comes about as a distraction on Amrita Singh’s part, to keep Jackie and Juhi at home rather than going out to celebrate his birthday as they had told the family they were planning. Amrita’s sentiments in her verse, like her actions in throwing the surprise party to begin with, are certainly childlike ones. She insists on getting her own way and even taunts her sister like a child, saying that her (Juhi’s) marriage is a game that she (Amrita) will win. Juhi interrupts in a parent-to-child manner, trying to bring Amrita to her senses: aadmi aaina nahin hota. (At times she addresses Jackie instead, which I suppose could be Adult-Adult, although I still think that the effect is basically that of an admonition meant for Amrita to overhear–?) It seems as though Juhi’s intention is to act like a “nurturing parent,” but she inadvertently falls more and more into the “critical parent” type as she becomes more agitated. When Amrita continues to insist on her viewpoint even when challenged, Juhi becomes SO upset that she takes on the role of a child as well; she returns to a memory of when she and Amrita had been little and Amrita had stolen her school trophy. Once Juhi’s attention is brought back to the present, she has tears in her eyes and is about to slap Amrita.
The very literal projection back into childhood by way of that memory is intrigued me here. Suffice to say that Jackie then has a verse trying to mediate between the two sisters, but the situation is not really salvageable after both Juhi and Amrita are in a childlike state. And everybody else whom Amrita invited to this horrible psychosexual surprise birthday party is perishing of secondhand embarrassment!
Shelomit,
“….blog post themes there is no end”, especially if there are keen followers.
In our films, mangalsutra empowered the wife in pati, patni aur wo situations. Juhi Chawla should have felt more assured of her position. Instead, she seems to be on the edge throughout, whereas Amrita Singh is more in control. Even though Amrita’s intentions are not noble, to me, she seems to be in the Adult ego state. Juhi Chawla seems to me in the Child state.
In a love triangle of BGG type we have seen the power of the mangalsutra. In the BBG type even when the wrong B is able to put the mangalsutra in the neck of the girl (G) as in Sangam, it becomes sacrosanct. Amrita Singh may have played her games, but I expected better from Juhi Chawla.
Jackie Shroff is in total command of himself. He is surprised at Amrita Singh’s behaviour, but everyone knows she has been like this from her childhood: Eat the cake and have it too – type. I find him throughout in the Adult state. Nice song for analysis. Thanks a lot.
Aaina hai mera chehra.
https://youtu.be/M8CzKJsKj1o
Incidentally, I hope you are able to get a general sense of a Hindi song and read Devanagari script. I don’t enjoy typing or reading long Hindi passages in Roman. I try to give translation in English of some songs or poems.
Ak ji
In his comments Chaudharyji has alluded to Sansar se bhage phirte ho as a song representative of critical parental behaviour.
Perhaps in Saraswatichandra Indeevar provides an antithesis to this song
Sample this
Ye bhog bhi ek tapasya hai tum pyar ke mare kya jano
V/S
Tan se tan ka milan ho na paye to kya
Man se man ka milan koi kam to nahi
Again chitralekha is a courtesan while Kumud is leading life of an ascetic widow
Chitralekha is shredding Yogiraj to pieces but Kumud is gently reminding Saraswati the reality from her perspective.
Incidentally Chitralekha had another pristine song
Man re tu kahe na
Can this be Alter ego of child to child
Here are the links
1 Sansar se bhage
https://youtu.be/dpeB-bOM74I
2 Chhod de sari Duniya
https://youtu.be/9urZBwBTsig
3 Man re tu kahe na
https://youtu.be/-fSligKK7A8
Mr Muli,
This is impressive. Ye bhog bhi ek tapasya hai: Does my analysis of the song #7 in my post refer to this philosophy? Your antithesis and analysis of all the three songs are spot on.
Thank you for adding your interpretation of the “Aaina” song! I realize now that I had been thinking of the ego states largely as abstract ethical perspectives, rather than focusing (as the term “transaction analysis” should have implied) on their interactional implications.
Re: Hindi lyrics, I must admit that, with the exception of a few very common words, I have to sound out Devanagari phoneme by phoneme like a little child. Whenever you give either transcribed lyrics or some translation, I enjoy reading along while listening to the song and using that opportunity to pick out unfamiliar words or grammar. Certainly I am grateful for whatever degree or type of transcription you provide!
Shelomit,
Thanks for your understanding and allow me the freedom to do as I please 🙂 .
AK,
रहुआ खातिर ताली बजाइके पड़ी। Is my Bhojpuri right for the occasion. I believe Bhojpuri and Haryanvi wit are quite similar and nowadays the pop music and tunes of these languages are quite matching each other. We have at home interpreting various songs in our own way. Though I do not agree with the TA of Berne or the nomenclature of the PAC model. I think his theory never became popular among the psychiatrists. Otherwise too North Americans are hardly the persons to understand a society other than their own, which itself is with a lot of faults. Parents in that society have hardly any respectable status there as compared to India.
I like the song analysis in your post as well as in comments, which is done in accordance with general relationships in the society. I agree you are a master at it. Perhaps I earlier mentioned interpretation of a couple of songs as told by my friend from Meerut. His Tauji and Father had this habit of analysing songs in a different way. In a Test match in the 70s there was a run out between Parthasarthy Sharma and Farrukh Engineer, they fit the song ‘humse aaya na gaya tumse bulaya na gaya’. Similarly when a labour did not dig the foundation as per expectations his Tauji fired him with ‘dekh li teri khudai ab mera dil bhar gaya’.
You talked about children’s songs playing important roles in hindi films. Look at these.
Daddyji, meri mummy ko satanan nahin achha from Sagai – 1951
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXMOEi0ZgY0
This is a situation from drama where the daughter is teaching manners to her father.
Dadi amma dadi amma maan jao from Gharana has an interaction between grandmother and her grandsons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IXnJ6-Ekug
In ‘sikandar ne porus se ki thi ladai’ the character starts with the natural apathy of children to the studies but ends up with telling a lot of gyaan which would fit an adult.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmarDySZ0LQ
In ‘hum bhi agar bachche hote’ an adult is imagining about the benefits of being a child.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIpAUx73rME
More later.
Hans,
I am impressed by your Bhojpuri which is 99.99% correct. In our parts we would use बजावेके. Unfortunately my learning ability of languages is close to zero. At different points I started learning different languages – Urdu (the script that is) and my favourite Bangla – and gave up. Fortunately, Haryanavi is so close to Hindi that there is no difficulty in understanding Haryanavi jokes. Everyone has one’s favourites. My favourite – An elderly lady went to the police station to lodge a complaint, मेरा आदमी तीन दिन पहले गोभी लाने बाज़ार गया था, अभी तक लौटा नहीं. The SHO told her, त की हो गया. भिंडी बना ले.
Ashwin says at @22 that they use TA as the basis in their Leadership Consulting firm. That should suggest that this tool has come into practice. I was hoping that the doctors on SOY would throw some light. But it seems that there is a tight compartment between psychotherapy and the conventional physiological medical science. If you know some psychiatrist/ therapist, it would be a good idea to check it out.
Daddyji, meri mummy ko satana achchha nahin: Since the daughter is giving a mature lesson to her father, she is in the adult state. You have given some nice examples of how a child, as per the chronological age, can be in the Adult ego state.
AK,
My son had a number of friends from Bihar who also were there when he got his job in Pune. He used to watch Bhojpuri films which he does now also in his work from home. After watching the ‘farting scene’ in Nirhua Hindustani 2, I also started watching these films and since then have watched a number of them. My learning is limited to the films. About your experience of learning other languages, I could have written the same. I have three Bangla self-learning books but still no progress. I like Bangla literature so much that I must have read Hindi translations of Bangla literature almost equal to the quantity I have read of original Hindi literature. As my father was Urdu scholar he taught me Urdu, but I did not heed his advice to write it as much as he said. So the result is that I can read only printed version of Urdu at slow pace. It is very difficult to read hand-written Urdu if you have not written Urdu yourself, because in Urdu there is a lot of mixing of alphabets. The end result is that if we want to learn the extra language, we should write a lot and devote at least one hour daily for two months and then continue practising reading and writing. But, do we have enough time for that?
Regarding TA, I was talking about use in psychiatry. I dont know what kind of use Ashwin’s company makes of TA, but I know most of the companies make use of it for pushing their agenda. The companies my son has worked in make them undergo reularly, compulsory sessions about respecting women at work place and need them to answer the questionnaires. If they have not given satisfactory answers, they continue at their throats again and again. So they have now devised a method to answer in a way which would satisfy the company people. There is a lot of hypocrisy going on with the result that women go scot free without doing much work or being entrusted with routine work and males suffer on their behalf. And they cant even complain.
I know some of my relatives who went to psychiatrists in stress conditions. The normal course adopted by such doctors is prescription of sedatives and dismissal of patients in five minutes. For TA to function in such cases a lot of time is required which they never give.
Our films have been showing a number of cases of memory loss from pre-Berne times, where some sort of methods were applied to restore memory. I think the most perfect Hindi film which applied a form of TA was Khamoshi in which the nurse who applied it with two patients ended in the psychiatry ward. Another film where a doctor was shown applying it in an Indian style was Baharon Ki Manzil, which had the pair of Meena Kumari and Dharmendra.
AK,
Now I give three songs totally different in response.
The first one is total submission like parent and small child which is natural because the hero is teaching singing to the heroine.
Milte hi ankhen dil hua deewana from Babul
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89Mz6gUFvcg
In ‘jhooth bole kauwa kate’ the heroine starts which the childish prank of ‘main mayke chali jaungi’ in reply to which the hero proposes some manouvres of ‘sam daam dand bhed’ category with the same result. But in the end he threatens with ‘sauten’ which transforms the heroine in the obedient child status.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfTC5cJpmwA
In this third one ‘muhabbat kar lo jee bhar lo’ from Aar Paar, the hero as taxi driver starts delivering the sermon to his passengers, who retaliate like the defiant child.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1BsXULRl-U
Now, I give a song which would need your expert advice, what kind of category it belongs to.
‘Hum aapki ankhon men is dil ko basa den to’ from Pyaasa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWaIQ_uF1ZU
Hans @37,
I am impressed that you have watched the recent films of Bhojpuri superstars. I watched some films of the Golden era such as, Ganga Maiya Tohre Piyari Chadhaibo, but I didn’t make the effort to watch the films of the current superstars. The impression I have is that Bollywoodisation has made the recent Bhojpuri films/ songs quite risqué, but it is important than one should keep in touch with what is going on in the name of Bhojpuri films. The classic era films where rooted in Bhojpuri rural culture, the new films do not have such pretensions.
I find you are quite dismissive of TA. I do not have enough domain knowledge or about its application in practice to comment further. I remember Khamoshi, but do not remember that they explained their methodology they were applying. I am speaking in the context of Spellbound (1945) which I have mentioned in the write-up in which Hitchcock gives a caption on the screen which is clearly Freudian.
In India there is some stigma with any psychiatric problem, unlike the West where at the slightest difficulty they go for ‘help’. In Dhoond, the negative character, Danny, is obsessed and unhinged, but his physical disability is shown as a reason. In Aadmi (1968), Dilip Kumar’s extreme obsession is of pathological level, but the film maker’s objective was not to delve into that, but to explore a neat resolution of the B1-B2-G1 love triangle. Since a G2 was around they found a neat, happy solution by quadrilateralisation B1-G1/B2-G2 (these terms are from my theory of Bollywood Love Triangles developed in my review of the film Sangam, 1964). You can recall similar resolutions in the film Aah (1953) and Naya Daur (1957). We have seen many complex, obsessive destructive characters, including some superstars playing negative roles. In these cases the antagonists met a violent death. In some cases the audience sympathy was with those characters, such as Shahrukh Khan in Baazigar.
@38,
Milte hi aankhen dil hua deewana kisi ka: The song is a study lesson. But there is also an overlaying meaning – the two lovers use the song expressing their love to each other. Another option is to view it as an Adult-Adult transaction.
Jhhoth bole kauwa kaate: I viewed Dimple Kapadia’s first line as from Adult ego-state. But you can view it as ‘Parent’ too. The last line you are interpreting as ‘Obedient Child’. I would treat it as coming from a sulking Child that she has been unfairly defeated.
Hum aapki aankhon mein: Guru Dutt makes a normal statement of love in an acceptable language. Mala Sinha’s response to his every proposal is problematic – What if I steal your heart by shutting my eyes; What if I throw your love flower by swaying my tresses; What if I..: What if I... A destructive Child.
AKji,
A Happy New Year to you and the SoY fraternity.
Coming bit late here… But what a cracker of a post to flag-off the new posts of 2023!
An unconventional theme, brilliantly written. Its hard to believe that you have no expertise on the topic.
Would like to commend both you and Mr. OP Choudhary for providing this wonderful post.
You have mentioned about expecting doctors to add to this discussion.
This takes me back to the late 80s when I studied for my MBBS.
Psychiatry was one of the sections that we had under Medicine. However, the focus in our studies was mainly on the various psychiatric disorders and their management. We did of course cover Sigmund Freud and his theories. I still remember his theories related to Psychoanalysis, psychosexual development and primarily, the Id, Ego and Super Ego.
However, TA was hardly covered in our syllabus. I believe, it may be part of post-graduate curriculum and psychologists and psycho therapists would be using TA in their patient analysis and treatment.
In those years, we all did read Games People Play, I am Ok You are Ok and Staying OK. These were quite popular that time and the pirated or secondhand copies were easily available at the booksellers on the footpath at Fountain, Mumbai.
I was not so good at Psychiatry/Psychology but am now making an attempt to analyze some songs using TA.
Itna na mujhse tu pyar badha – Chhaya 1961
A parent- adult category.
He is advising her as a parent to refrain from continuing to love him – a vagabond, while she replies in the mature adult manner that she is fully aware of the challenges and still will continue to love him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZUcBGRoLqo
Aao tume main pyar sikha doon – Upasana 1971
An Adult-Child category, here, at the beginning, he is in the Adult state and she is the child state. And the roles reveres in the second stanza.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwBF09xo9TY
Pehle padhaai phir pyar hoga – Aakhree Raasta 1986
A parent-child category. She is trying to make him learn while he is only interested in love, with no intention to study.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXtgR8U1sT8
Dr Deshpande,
You have more than made up for your delayed response. You have validated my assumption about a professional. Now I get it that psychotherapy is more like “counselling”, and psychiatry is more treatment of a pathological condition. You have rightly mentioned the place of the two books in popular reading.
I liked your analysis of the three songs. It is very difficult to disagree with you even for argument sake.